I agree with much in your article and I certainly have no sympathy for the "transgender activists" you criticize, but I have mixed feelings about referring to people not quite like us as transvestites or, really, as anything else that offends them.

I am sure we all have come across people struggling with their gender identity that were neither driven to surgery, nor fetishists. Many I have known were unsure of exactly what they are. Some will conclude that surgery is the necessary and proper choice and some may not. They do not all resent us or try to classify us.

And we do have some things in common with some of them, at least when we are preop. All that break the social mores in this area are stigmatized and suffer discrimination.

Even those that find surgery unnecessary -- and I am sure many of us know people that changed th their view on this -- may find other forms of sex or gender noncomformance necessary. Many couldn't care less about theory. They seek their place, and they seek some freedom to be themselves.

As the excellent debate has unfolded on this site, it has spurred me to ask myself why I have continued periodically to attend a support group of mostly searchers, even as I otherwise live with the maximum degree of stealth possible in my circumstances. And I think the answer is two-fold.

First, of course, some of the attendees are preop, and can use whatever support they can get. But others are not sure what they are, yet face similar social stigma and consequences to the extent they live the way they feel they must.

Such people are not my enemy, and I am not theirs. They are as human as we, and their needs, if different, may be just as real. There is value in supporting them as well.

As far as I am concerned, they may call themselves "transgender" or indeed they may define themselves in any way they like, so long as they afford me the same privilege.

Most that I have known, not being hateful people, do not attempt to categorize me as anything other than what I am.

For every gynephobic transgender activist out there, I guess there are a lot more of these perfectly nice people, often in need of help.

and some of their positions are indeed the main problem. The TG leaders can presume to represent anyone they please if not challenged. The closet is the main location for most folks they presume to lead. Fact is, most male cross-dressers and/or transvestitites and/or whatever are deep in the closet.

I am glad to hear about your experience with the searchers since they have come out far enough to seek answers.

We have been quite consistent here in our advocacy for the equal rights that should adhere to all Americans, without regard to arbitrary criteria that demote certain population groups to second-class status.

In my view, picking on the rank and file is wrong and gets us nowhere. Compassion and fair play should be the order of the day (and night).

Diana, that is an interesting and poignant point you have made. This is a personal view but it is based on a fair amount of experience. It is the starting place that reveals the most telling differences between transvestites, transgender and HBS. It is this point of origin that is the biggest deciding factor in where and how those three different groups finish up.

I can understand why you may believe that HBS have some things in common with those who identify as transgender. However I believe that is an error, albeit an easy one to make. (I used to think that too) However, it has been my experience that all transgender have at some point in their lives either accepted that were male or were once male. (and vs versa) HBS have never at any point in their life accepted the biology. It is that one fundemental difference that is the origin of the motivation. In my opinion that one simple factor affects the whole outcome that manifests later in life.

As to why those who have no need to remain within social support groups either on line or in the mainstream of our life. I have no explanation other than we are women first and foremost and as such have a need to communicate with other women. Often these groups either on line or not are the only places where the elephant in the corner of our lives can be discussed freely. However sour the discussions may sometimes become when there is an occasional intruder.

In reading many of the comments I have seen posted here so far it appears to me that some* members of the HBS community are more preocupied with deriding and misrepresenting members of the non-HBS community than with the important work (supposedley the focus of this group) of achieving acceptance, medical treatment and legal protections for HBS Women, and I have to say that Cathryn's post comes across as clearly being in that vien.

*please note Cathryn, that I say some, and do not attempt to tar the entire HBS community with the same brush just because some of their number seem to delight in engaging in campagns of bigoted/hostile/misrepresentative activism as you have done by aiming your accusations of gynophobia and misogyny at [all] "Those that call themselves Transgendered" rather than at the small number of activists within that community which exhibit certain behaviour, and I believe you do yourself and the HBS community a diservice in doing so]

Not all of those that call themselves transgendered are either gynophobic and/or misogynistic, although there are bound to be a few (just as there are obviously someHBS Women who hate and fear men), but to infer that all transgenders are, is simply ridiculous and smacks of the exact kind of misleading & misrepresentative activism which so many in the HBS community accuse the 'transgender crazies' of in regard to them - and it's probably more likely to encourage those sad insecure crazies within the transgender community to redouble their efforts to oppose HBS rights & support - and it certainly doesn't encourage the the rest of the non-HBS community to consider your 'science' with an open mind and/or support your cause.

As usual, Diana has made some valid points of clarity which I strongly encourage you to consider before you start speaking for an entire community to which you obviously do not even belong:

"Even those that find surgery unnecessary -- and I am sure many of us know people that changed th their view on this -- may find other forms of sex or gender noncomformance necessary. Many couldn't care less about theory. They seek their place, and they seek some freedom to be themselves".

"But others are not sure what they are, yet face similar social stigma and consequences to the extent they live the way they feel they must.

Such people are not my enemy, and I am not theirs. They are as human as we, and their needs, if different, may be just as real. There is value in supporting them as well.

As far as I am concerned, they may call themselves "transgender" or indeed they may define themselves in any way they like, so long as they afford me the same privilege.

Most that I have known, not being hateful people, do not attempt to categorize me as anything other than what I am.

For every gynephobic transgender activist out there, I guess there are a lot more of these perfectly nice people, often in need of help."

I am one of those people who, knowing since I was perhaps 5 years old that I just didn't feel right as a boy, was pretty certain by age 16 that I was transsexual. Not being very sexually inclined, and not wanting a life on the street as a prostitute (the only real option for a transsexual in NZ then), it wasn't until perhaps my 6th suicidal episode that I realised that I must either face the social stigma and consequences of transition/live my live according to who I really was or die. After 3 years on hormones living as a 24/7 femme I knew I was never going back and lacking all the funds for SRS had an orchidecomy. A lot changed for me after that and I realised that for the first time in my life I actually felt comfortable in my own skin and started to rethink the SRS thing and visiting sites like this to sort out where I fit/what it all meant.

As Diana has identified, I have found that further surgery is probably unnecessary for me (so I am not HBS and no longer identify as transsexual) I'm not too hung up on theory or labels either but I don't appreciate people who are not transvetites telling me I am one or anyone who isn't me telling me what/who I am.

I know from 'the science' that I am not HBS now and that other people are, and I support those people who know they are HBS in getting what they need appropriate to their identity. I also know that my gender is not male and never has been.

Knowing what I am not, and who I am is all I need to know for now, and I will figure out whatI am in my own time if & when it becomes a big concern for me to label myself with anything other than femme. All I can tell you is that it feels like a comfortable level of femmeinity which is not linked to any sexual desires/fetishes. It feels like a 3rd gender and it fells more 'right' to me than anything else I've ever felt.

But like Diana said, I am not 'the enemy' of HBS Women just because I'm comfortably not one myself (and I niether fear or hate any woman just for being a woman - I don't hate men either - after all they are only men and you can't really expect them to be anything more)

Also as Diana said there are lot's of people like myself who are just trying to find their own place in the sun without jumping on anyone else's beach-towel, who have no agenda to deny you your place in the sun, and will happily support you in your journey.
All I ask is that you show us the same courtesy and respect that we extend to you.

As the founder of a NZ support group which strives to transcend the divisions between the various sectors of the femme fraternity in supporting each other (without trying to deny the distinctions between them or lump everyone under the transgender umbrella which I personally feel should be abandoned by everyone because of the endless infighting over it's usage if nothing else), I came here to better understand the HBS science/definitions and the issues that are important to the HBS community - so that I can help other femmes* find where they honestly fit or don't fit, and how we can all support each other in obtaining the appropriate acceptance, medical treatment, and legal protection according to where we 'fit'.

*Femme is the least contentious/offensive term I could come up with when I set the group up in 2001 - if people want to self identify as anything more specific that identity is accepted and respected.

I have not come here to tell anyone who/what they are or who/what they are not, or to argue with anyone. I am here with a spirit of respect and a desire to better understand the issues which this group purports to be dedicated to addressing. I'm finding it hard to figure out what the real issues are though when I see posts like your's Cathryn, as it doesn't appear to have any relevance to what defines a person as HBS or what HBS women need or how they can be supported in getting it - I'm afraid it just comes across as pointless malicious transgender bashing. So what's that about I wonder?

In closing, I'd just like to ask you Cathryn to consider that perhaps if anything is likely to encourage people who are not genuine Pre-op HBS Women to inappropriately identify as such or to oppose HBS Women or transsexuals form claiming thier own idependant identity/status it's post like your's - which sends a clear message that to not identify as transexual is to have people like yourself despise them as gynophobic and misogynistic by their very non-transsexual/'transgendered' nature.
(And please consider that many of us who do not 'call ourselves transgendered', notheless just get that label applied to us by everyone who denies the existence of 3rd gender communities, has no understanding of or respect for the Pasifika Fa'afafine, Whakawahine', Fakafefine Cultures, or or is simply too lazy to ask us how we idendify by default.)

Thank you for your comments. The opinion column is under the byline of Cathry Pltine. She can deal with your critique if she wishes to do so.

I would like to explore something you said of inteest to TS-Si. You said:

In reading many of the comments I have seen posted here so far it appears to me that some* members of the HBS community are more preocupied with deriding and misrepresenting members of the non-HBS community than with the important work (supposedley the focus of this group) of achieving acceptance, medical treatment and legal protections for HBS Women, and I have to say that Cathryn's post comes across as clearly being in that vien.

Speaking for TS-Si, we are in fact Dedicated to the acceptance, medical treatment, & legal protection of individuals in the process of correcting the misalignment of their anatomical sex, & supporting their transition into society. We pursue this for both men and women.

One of our projects is TS-Si.org. We publish a wide variety of articles.

Among those articles are opinion columns where authors can provide narratives on their own lives and their views on issues of the day. The authors' opinions do not necessarily convey an official position of TS-Si, its partners, or affiliates. Moreover, many of the authors can differ from each other in terms of their intent, content, and tone.

The opinion columns often result in lively discussion. As long as we stay on point and calmly discuss the content the discussions threads can be very informative (enlightening, even).

With regard to TS-Si, our focus is as stated in our mission statement, but it should not be construed in any way to exclude respect and compassion for others. We support your inherent rights and dignity.

We do resist attempts to designate us as Transgender or include us under the GLBT umbrella. Our issue has nothing to do with either sexual orientation or presentation per se. TS-Si's argument is with the Transgender activists who promote our inclusion under the "T" is LGBT, not the rank-and-file. We wish anyone well who shows the same regard for us.

Thank you again for your comments.

Ms. Sharon Sinead Gaughan
TS-Si VP & Executive Director
Managing Editor, TS-Si.org

You, first of all, ARE willing to tar me with "hatred".......for over a decade I attempted to build bridges with these people. In the US at least, there is a complete unwillingness to let us have our identity, allow us a voice in activism and this is accompanied by a viciousness that has to been experienced to be believed. Yes, these people are my enemy, they made damn sure I knew they were. I have receieved multiple credible death threats, been outted and lost jobs, slandered and libeled, turned into Homeland Security as a terrorist, magazine bombed with over 200 subscriptions in my name just for starters. I've had attempts to leave me homeless, interfer with my mail service, have my internet service disrupted and more denial of service attempts than I care to remember. If I come off harsh now, this is why. My crime was trying to promote the simple usage of transsexual AND transgender and objecting to the umbrella use of the term transgender which has served as I witnessed it happen, to completely erase classic transsexuality from the public eye, equate those born with HBS with fetishistic crossdressers and wage a campaign of terror against anyone who objected.

Ten to fifteen years ago if you were outted you were automatically assumed post op, today the automatic assumption is you are a chick with a dick. I have yet to run across a single individual on the transgender side of the fence willing to work towards the simple respect of identity of those of us HBS. Therefore I reject your arguments out of hand, at least as it is here, on the ground, in the US.